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Thursday, December 04, 2008

The coverage of the Mumbai attacks in the US has been intense. I am angry and outraged at the partisan politics India's parties seem to be waging amidst this tragedy. But I am also annoyed at the western media's consistent referral of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) as a "Hindu Nationalist Party".

If the BJP is termed so, can the Republican Party in the US be henceforth referred to as the Christian Fundamentalist Party"? Honestly, I don't see much of a difference between the values these two parties espouse vis-a-vis religion. So , why not? Would this be a mis-representation?

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

There is a group is India, and especially in teh Hindu society, where in it lives the life of a hypocrites and insanely selfish animals. They are called SECULARISTS.

What on earth is more secular than Vedic Hinduism. Infact, there is no other religion that DECLARES affirmatively that GOD is all pervading and is in evyry individuality of the creation and need to treat everyone as same as self.

BJP or RSS or VHP or Bhajarangdal are merely nothing but originating out of the incapabilities or inabilities of the CONGRESS/NEHRU DYNASTY that ruled India for over 50 years. Whenever CONGRESS sits senselessly silent whenever Hindus are abused, it gives rise to teh anger in Hindus and hence Hindus want a vehicle where their valid concerns of CONGRESS not taking actions are heard and taken care of. That is how BJP,RSS etc came up.

Remember one thing. Islamic insane animals are the ones who came to the Vast Indian continent, and abused the local people and committed grave human rights violations. It was the Islamic thugs that split vast Indian continent in to PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH & INDIA. It was these thughs who while ruling, forced people by using violence to convert to Islam. If we take a combined India, almost 40% was Islamic population. But after partition, since most muslims went to PAK & BANGLADES, they became so called Minorities with 15%.

Look at how many temples in the past were tortured, destroyed and deliberately, there were Mosques that were setup next door to a prominent temple to intimidate the Hindu populations when the Islamic rulers ruled India. History tells that major iconic temples of india were being abused by Islamic animals.

Even now, they are not stopping these insane acts. They are killing people senselessly, they are pumping huge amounts of FAKE INDIAN RUPEES to destabilize the Economy, attacking Financial centers, harboring terrorists and seperatists for the sake of supporting Islamic maniacs.

Why on earth Hindus cannot have anger against the Islamic people who are involved in these activities?

Look at how the Islamic world is going against the USA & hating USA for doing just one war in Iraq. But, why cannot Hindus have hate against the islamic people who are causing troubles to others who are non-islamic.


I guess, the so called SECULARISTS MAY SAY PAST IS PAST. But the thing is that, the same Islamic world doesnot give up the fight in KASHMIR saying that PAST IS PAST. Same islamic world doesnot give up Palestine saying PAST IS PAST. Infact, it is the financially sound Islamic world that is funding the terrorists in Kashmir, PAK, Palestine etc places.

I guess, the days for violent Islam for are numbered, since
after World War 2, even the Japan came to its senses and started thinking like a good fellow. Similar thing, which is a HUGE, HUGE thing coming that will make the Islamic world to lick its wounds at that time and do some serious introspection, there by leading it to renounce Violence all together.

prabukarthik said...

For once, a sensible comment by a sensible anon.

Sriram said...

Hmmmm. I guess the anon poster has made some sense. You'd also have to look at who these media outlets really represent. Who funds them etc. And if you look at their antecedents and their outlook towards this country, you'd understand.

For eg, while wwii's largescale destruction of brit power and a strengthening freedom struggle caused india to gain freedom, why exactly was pakistan created? cos the brits could've told jinnah to stfu and accept it. i mean, while they raped the subcontinent for a few centuries, you wouldn't exactly expect them to be neutral judges given what was at stake. A dummy nation that would have a standing amongst the islamic nations, saudi being the chief, would be a great pawn for them to secure their energy needs going into this century and the next. Apart from the obv geo-political advantages and of course to cut india down to size.

hmmm.. soo much history and intrigue in it.. need years to understand and reason but just a second to accept :)

SUBASH said...

hey
it is one of the worst things that has ever happened.Indian government should feel ashamed and better india hits all those camps in pakistan.the navy is really unfit.people in india are shell shocked.
also i was expecting a review on vaaranam aayiram in u r blog

Badhri said...

I would like to differ from the "sensible" annon here, not because he/she is wrong, but because his/her views are not complete.

To say that Vedic Hinduism is secular is to plainly pretend knowledge, when one is ignorant. None knows about vedic hinduism. Less than 30% of vedas are now available and it is in Devanagari which is not understood by most of the Hindus. So, even assuming that Vedic Hinduism *is* secular.."Hindus" don't understand it and if they do, there is all likeliness that it would be outdated. To my knowledge nothing apart from the Sun Moon and the five elements has been useful to man inspite of being centuries old. So, lets not praise what we don't understand.

Moving to putting the blame squarely on Islamic people who migrated to destroy "native" India culture..again short-sigted views. If you say islamic people were outsiders, so were early vedic Hindus (or aryans), and they passed through the same Khyber pass. Don't agree with me? Try this.. Horses are plenty in our myths, but if you think about it, horses were never native to India. the early Hinduism traces its roots back to somewhere close to Persia or Arabia (Watch "The story of India, BBC)..so if we go down this path of finding out who is native to India, NONE is! The first ones to occupy India were gatherers who actually migrated through the shores of Kerala from Africa. So, how about all of us vacating the country and leaving India to the natives - cats and cucumbers?

Further, muslim rulers are always viewed as "decimators" or destroyers (which in general is quite true...), but ironically in spite of having great "unifiers" like Ashoka and Raja raja chola, who cared nothing for a larger Hindu religion (as against shivism or the like..) the only ruler who actually recognized that partisanship in the name of religion and forceful conversion from one religion to another is detrimental to the larger society (the fundamentals of secularism) is a Muslim. Akbar.

On the other hands, the so called Hindu kings didn't fare well either in protecting temples, especially it didn't venerate the god they believe in. In fact, there was no such thing called a Hindu temple. So what are we going to do after taking care of the present day Muslims? Try to find out who among shivites and vishnaite deserves to be called as a true Hindu? Or how about Dravidian vs. Aryans?

Or why don't we just grow up and stop generalizing and get along instead of writing long passages with lot of senseless and emotional adjectives that calls people names and finally serves no useful purpose?

Anonymous said...

Dear Badhri,
looks like you donot have come across complete knowledge of Hinduism and Vedas.

In Bhagavadgeetha, Lord Krishna Or the ALL PERVADING DIVINITY OR GOD affirms that GOD IS ALL PERVADING WITH NO MIDDLE, NO END AND NO BEGINNING. This means, that GOD is in everyone and in everything including the creation as well as beyond the creation. From the perspective of an individual, GOD is nothing but ones UNIVERSAL SELF as per Bhagavadgeetha.

So, THIS AFFIRMS THAT ALL ARE ONE BEFORE GOD OR YOUR UNIVERSAL SELF OR IN ORIGINALITY WHEN IT COMES TO GRANTING THE INDIVIDUALITY. This is the core of secularism, "to treat others as same as self".

Infact, in Bhagavadgeetha, Lord Krishna also affirms that Being non-enemity to others (PLEASE NOTE THE WORD "nirvaira sarva-bhuteshu" in chapter 11, sloka 55, affirms that one need to treat every one and everything in this creation as self, not just limit to the Human beings, since GOD is all pervading, just like the thread is inherently all pervading in the garland, while supporting each flower inherently) no matter what, is the highest ideal :

"One who dedicates all works to Me and to whom I am the supreme goal, who is my devotee, who has no attachment or selfish desires, and who is free from malice toward any creature reaches Me, O Arjuna. (See also 8.22) (11.55)

Since you have mentioned that Vedas are not available as per your knowledge, I have used Bhagavadgeetha, which is nothing but a concise form of the entire Vedas WIsdom. DO YOU NOW ACCEPT WHAT I WROTE ABOUT HOLY VEDAS OR BHAGAVADGEETHA, THAT THEY ADVOCATE A COMPLETE SECULARISM?



By the way, if you are interested, I can point you to the exact modern scientific inventions affirming what the Bhagavadgeetha or vedas have been since ages. I am not some one who accepts things just like that, but does accept only based on my personal experiences as well as experimentation of my own. Afterall, we donot need to accept GOD or your Universal self blindly. Infact, I can affirm from the depths of my being that Vedic Dharma or Sanatana Dharma, had given rise to Lord Krishna or Lord Jesus Christ like saints in India in every generation without fail, and silently without any showoff. Such is the magnanimity of the Vedas and Holy Bhagavadgeetha.

Anonymous said...

Dear Badhri,
Here is an explanation of what is GOD from the perspective of an Individual:
---------------------------
Here is a simple explanation and the core of all religions. Some religions told only partial info of this since there is no point in telling at those times,to general populations,when they are not ready enough to understand the higher aspects of life. While mere words (compared to personal experiences) cannot explain GOD but only self experiences,here is a small try to explain the phenomenon of the world and that of GOD. There are more subtler stages than the 7 levels that mentioned here,as well, but this is a high level one.

Every individual,in the process of regaining the lost universal counciousness state or the STATE OF GOD or ALL PERVADING DIVINITY,will go through the following stages. The reason why its a regaining of divine state,is because this is what the ORIGINAL state is for every individual,the state of infinite hapiness and bliss and that of universal counciousness,of omnipotence and omnipresence. For some reasons, individual SOULS or specks of counciousnesses self-impose the individuality and limitedness under the influence of EGO (or the "I" feeling):

STAGES:
Body Counciousness-to-MindCounciousness-to-WillPowerCounciousness-to-SoulCounciousness(or realization of self as nothing but a speck of counciousness)-to-Seeing/Identifying Existing Of UniversalCounciousness OR UniversalPower-to-RealizingSelfAsPartOfUniversalCounciousness-to-Final Realization of self as all pervading UNIVERSAL COUNCIOUSNESS with onmipresence,omnipotence & existing with in the creation & beyond creation.

THE ATTITUDE OF A PERSON CHANGES AS THE PERSONS LEVEL OF ENLIGHTMENT CHANGES FROM ONE STAGE TO OTHER STAGE.


1.Body counciousness or the realization that self is the body (or mere senses). Perceiving the world and acting in the world with this counciousness is the lowest that any one can fall to.

2.Mind counciousness or the realization that self is the mind (or realization of self as the mere mind, still yet one more sense, but is more powerful than mere body senses)at of being more powerful than the bodily senses). Perceiving the world and carrying out actions in the world with this level of realization is a bit better than the previous body level, since Mind is superior than the body or bodily senses. Here is an experiment done recently to prove the control of mind over body:

http://www.brown.eduSLASHAdministration/News_Bureau/2001-02/01-098.html

I could only give modern scientific proof of this phenomenon up to this level, since modern science is still evolving and as of now, it is limited to material level and to some extent mind level and not beyond that. There are some vague proofs of below aspects, in modern science like declaring that all matter is nothing but energy and also some Quantum Physics concepts as well, but they are not complete and scientists are still debating on them.

3.Will Power Counciousness or the realization that self is the will power.Perceiving the world and acting in the world with this counciousness is higher state than that of previous 2 states. This is because, in truth, Will power is more powerful than the body or mind.

4.Soul counciousness or realization that self is an ever existing entity. Perceiving the world & acting in the world with this counciousness is higher state than that of previous 3 states.It is in this state,that the person sees self as an ever existing entity & not subjected to the cycle of life and death & is not vulnerable to the material & mind level limiting aspects of the creation like indestructibility by materials etc.This state is more powerful than any individual qualities an individual may have possessed. When a person regains access to this state, even for a split second will be able to start perceiving the next states, that are above the individuality & leading to universalness. This is the state in which Sri Adi Shankaracharya had spoke of NIRVANA OR AATMA SHATKA, THIS IS THE STATE IN WHICH LORD JESUS CHRIST SPOKE OF WHEN HE REFERS TO HIMSELF AS "I" IN HOLY BIBLE, This is the state that lord Krishna refers to In Geetha and countless other enlightened Individuals had experienced this state in the past across all over the world. There is a saying that an individual who attains and retains this state or any below states at ease, can be trusted and no one else.

5.When an individual realizes self as a speck of counciousness or Soul after coming out of the outer sheaths(steps 1,2&3) of illusion, then the individual starts perceving that self is not alone in this creation,but starts identifying the existing of an unknown power,A POWER THAT IS MUCH BEYOND THE GRASPING power of the self.This is the initial stage of knowing the universalness.Sometimes,when we have developed an affection towards someone,then we would have a realization that there is no difference between that person and self. This means,a persons counciousness or the sphere of awareness or influence (perception or action) is beyond the individual body or mind or will power.This is the starting point towards realizing or regaining the universal counciousness.

6.In the intermediate stages of realization of the universalness, the individual perceives that he/she is actually part and parcel of the universalness.

7.In the final stage of enlightment, the person has no individuality at all, and is fully in tune with the universal counciousness irrespective of time and is Omnipotent and omnipresent. This is the state of GOD or referred to as GOD in various scriptures by the saints of all religions across the world who had realized what is GOD.

NOTE: Most probably, there is a possibility of a person getting access to the highers states of realization, for a brief periods of time, including getting access to the highest universal counciousness either intentionally or unintentionally, but those who can go into and retain the higher states at their will are the really enlightened ones.

A simple example of the above phenomenon of different states is the example of a person watching a movie. When the persons counciousness is fully involved in the movie via the bodily senses and the sense of Mind, the person is tuned to the moods of the movie. When a sad scene comes, the person becomes sad, and when a happier moment comes, the person becomes happy and so on. As long as the person forgets that self is different from the movie and lets the movie(which is nothing but a combination of lighter and darker shades of light) illude, due to self imposed restrition to the movie, the person is tuned by the movie. But the moment the person realizes or re-remembers or regains counciousness that this is just a movie, then, the person selectively enjoys the movie scenes and is not forced to be affected by the unwanted scenes. Similar is the world. The more a person lets self fall to the pull of the senses, the more the person is binded to the nature and environment, but the more the person realizes that self is above own body or mind or even will power, to that extent the person gets freed from the nature and its environment. If the person realizes even more further above the soul level, then to that extent the person gets free from the external aspects of the creation, and rises above the illusion of the creation, which again is nothing but the ALL PERVADING GOD's power that ultimately is responsible for the drama of the creation.
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The Doodler said...

All,

Good comments and good discussion by everyone!

Two requests from me:

Anon -- it would be nice to put a name to the comments. As a person expressing such strong views, I am sure you wouldn't mind putting your name to it? :)

Anonymous said...

ok. next time, I will put my name or better, I will use my sign-on to google account.

Anonymous said...

badhri,

Devanagari script - You are right, I don't know. But nor will I be forced to learn it on the grounds that it is God's verses.

Whatever little i know, does not say 'non-believers will go to hell'.

My religion does not insist on a law today where a woman has to have four human witnesses (only men of the religion of peace and submission are considered human and hence count as witness) to prove that she had been raped. Otherwise it shall be deemed as fornication and she will be punished for immorally sleeping with other men.

We have changed, we do not follow such rules for sure..

Yeah there are religious customs for me too but i am not an apostate who deserve to be killed if i criticize it or convert to other religion.

In the present days, most terror activities are done by brainwashed people from one religion. Why no serious introspection has happened that we know of there? While we know that half the world was burning when some cartoonist decided to have fun.

If that religion does not propogate terror and violence how come so many people have kept mum for so long? What is the contribution of the well off people and states in that religion in promoting world peace.

I would be the last person to say that a person who is HINDU by birth is a saint. NO. But HINDU philosophies does not accord sanction to killings either. Please prove me otherwise.

I have nothing against somebody, but if they decide to follow their holy book to the letter, they might have something against me! I agree that we are all outsiders, but tell me how do i peacefully co-exist with an outsider whose duty is to propogate his religion by sword?

It is naivete to think 'Oh I am worshipping X, You worship Y, we are all equals'

No it does not work that way.

It is 'I worship X, and its my duty to make sure the whole world should worship only X' philosophy that is at work.

The real RDX is not in the chemicals, but in the way the GOD concept has been combined with military and law ideas as a strategic tool to gain control over the whole world. That's sheer genius.

I am hesitant to use the world 'good' or 'divine' before genius in this context though.

Again, i could've just kept mum, but this is what i know. Maybe if you know better, i will revisit my views and form new ideas if i am convinced with your points.

With that mindset, i am naturally suspicious about a belief system which says 'Obey me and my laws without arguments or adaptations forever or else i will kill you' for promoting peaceful co-existence.

PK

prabukarthik said...

previous comment (PK) was mine btw.

Badhri said...

PK,
Lets get one thing straight. It doesn't matter what the religious book says. Hinduism probably doesn't say kill another human being, then again depending upon how you want to interpret, it probably says, it is perfectly fine to kill a 100 cousin of yours if you think (and some master manipulator who everyone thinks is the incarnation of god says) that they are evil. It is all in the interpretation.

So, let us not get into comparing one religion with the other by what the books say. The way I see it, terrorists born into Islam who kill listen to an "imam" in Madrasa. Terrorists born into Hinduism, listen to a hindu fundamentalist preacher. Period. Again, it is the preacher, the book is irrelevant.

My only point is the way we carelessly generalize and call "Islamic insane animals" (as you used) and the "drive them out of India". Such careless generalization is the foundation of tit-for-tat violence. It never, I repeat NEVER, solves the problem. When you wrote the comment, did you want to solve the problem or worsen it?

I will give a simple example I have always given. (Subha would go for my jugular for my stating this example the 100th time).

Discrimination against is a social problem, just like terrorism is. Do you think it is going to be solved when women squarely blame men in general for the problem? It is only going to incite ego and we would only lose men who otherwise genuinely desire gender equality, to male chauvinists. Again, generalization always worsens a problem

I feel terrorism in India is still there in India and new ones are popping up precisely because for 60 years we have not grown up and grown out of this "generalizing and blaming" mentality. As long as we are this way, no law, no policy, no NSG and no coast guard can help us. You may choose to believe otherwise...well..everyone is entitled to his opinion! :) (this diplomacy always works!)

Anonymous said...

hey badhri,

Hinduism doesnot just say to kill 100 of your own brothers without purpose.

It says to kill someone even if they are your own, because in the end, since everyone is yours, you have the onus of saving the week and disadvantaged ones from your those own bad ones.

Of course, if you want to spare some killer just because he is your own brother, who killed someone else, that is your level of enlightment.

But any enlightened one will think of others also as their own ones, and then give appropriate punishment for those who cross the lines, irrespective of the relationships.

Anonymous said...

I agree with you that generalizing or removing muslims is not at all the solution, since as Hindus, we were supposed to treat oter humans as same as ourselves irrespective of their religion or any external aspect, except character.

In muslims there are those who are truly good and enlightened and if we generalize, then, we are also insulting them as well. Just like the way GOD saves 100 others for the sake of 1 good one, we should also show this attitude towards others, and should not generalize and blame everyone.